Good Morning Mec and Mutz.

I address you both because I suspect that this will be a tag team affair and its welcomed. Correct me if I wrong, but this discussion is heading towards a couple of things.

Who is the one true God? (1) You will attempt to Prove that Jesus is not God and at the same time if you can prove that Jesus is not God, (2) then you will have proven the doctrine of trinity false. If you do indeed prove this, you would have done what has not been able to be done for nearly 2000 years..

Well lets get the party started..

As I have told both of you guys in the past, I do have a lot of respect for you and agree with just about everything you say. Our main difference is that I believe Jesus is God and is also the Son of God and I believe in the Godhead.

Now since we and others have partially discussed this in the past there is no need to beat a dead horse. Time to change the approach. I will start by asking you some very simple questions to give you somethings to chew on.

I have also taken much of my info from a few members on this board whom I would like to give credit to. It took a bit of research, but since I will save this debate or atleast this article for my website, it is all worth it.

I would like to thank these people in no particular order because they have all brought up very good points..

Lovely, Destiny, Vic, Cybershark, Lewis, Johnthebaptist,D46,MR Versatile, Gabbylittleangel, Stovebolts, and of course my Good friend Solo..

I would also like to thank Georges because of his heretical teachings, it has caused me to look deeper into the scriptures and thus has made me richer in my understaning of them.

George, By the way, I am 80% done correcting your pdf.

I prayfully hope that you and others will indeed see that Jesus Is God.

OK, let me start with this.

Why was the early and present day church so concerned about the doctrine of the Trinity?

Is it really essential to hold to the full deity of the Son and the Holy Spirit? Yes it is, for this teaching has implications for the very heart of the Christian faith.

First, the atonement is at stake. If Jesus is merely a created being, and not fully God, then it is hard to see how he, a creature, could bear the full wrath of God against all of our sins. Could any creature, no matter how great, really save us?

Second, justification by faith alone is threatened if we deny the full deity of the Son. (This is seen today in the teaching of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do not believe in justification by faith alone.) If Jesus is not fully God, we would rightly doubt whether we can really trust him to save us completely. Could we really depend on any creature fully for our salvation?

Third, if Jesus is not infinite God, should we pray to him or worship him? Who but an infinite, omniscient God could hear and respond to all the prayers of all God’s people? And who but God himself is worthy of worship? Indeed, if Jesus is merely a creature, no matter how great, it would be idolatry to worship him—yet the New Testament commands us to do so (Phil. 2:9–11; Rev. 5:12–14).

Fourth, if someone teaches that Christ was a created being but nonetheless one who saved us, then this teaching wrongly begins to attribute credit for salvation to a creature and not to God himself. But this wrongfully exalts the creature rather than the Creator, something Scripture never allows us to do.

Fifth, the independence and personal nature of God are at stake: If there is no Trinity, then there were no interpersonal relationships within the being of God before creation, and, without personal relationships, it is difficult to see how God could be genuinely personal or be without the need for a creation to relate to.

Sixth, the unity of the universe is at stake: If there is not perfect plurality and perfect unity in God himself, then we have no basis for thinking there can be any ultimate unity among the diverse elements of the universe either. Clearly, in the doctrine of the Trinity, the heart of the Christian faith is at stake. ''

Mec and Mutz

Like I said. Here are a few questions and comments to chew on.

I have not even hit you with the powerful scriptures yet. I'm still working on them and putting them together for you in a way that will, and I pray will prove that Jesus is both God and the Son of God..and that you and others will come to that understanding..

Blessings,

Javier

To follow the trhread click here.  http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=25045&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

John begins his Gospel by speaking about the Word but he does not explain at first who or what the Word is. A word is a unit of speech by which we express ourselves to others. But John is not writing about speech but rather about a Person. That Person is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. God has fully expressed Himself to mankind in the Person of the Lord Jesus. By coming into the world, Christ has perfectly revealed to us what God is like. By dying for us on the cross, He has told us how much God loves us. Thus Christ is Gods living Word to man, the expression of Gods thoughts.

1:1  In the beginning was the Word. He did not have a beginning Himself, but existed from all eternity. As far as the human mind can go back, the Lord Jesus was there. He never was created. He had no beginning. (A genealogy would be out of place in this Gospel of the Son of God.) The Word was with God. He had a separate and distinct personality. He was not just an idea, a thought, or some vague kind of example, but a real Person who lived with God. The Word was God. He not only dwelt with God, but He Himself was God.

The Bible teaches that there is one God and that there are three Persons in the Godheadthe Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three of these Persons are God. In this verse, two of the Persons of the Godhead are mentionedGod the Father and God the Son. It is the first of many clear statements in this Gospel that JesusChrist isGod. It is not enough to say that He is a god,that He is godlike, or that He is divine. The Bible teaches that He is God.

1:2  Verse 2 would appear to be a mere repetition of what has been said, but actually it is not. This verse teaches that Christs personality and deity were without beginning. He did not become a person for the first time as the Babe of Bethlehem. Nor did He somehow become a god after His resurrection, as some teach today. He is God from all eternity.

1:3  All things were made through Him. He Himself was not a created being; rather He was the Creator of all things. This includes mankind, the animals, the heavenly planets, the angels all things visible and invisible. Without Him nothing was made that was made. There can be no possible exception. If a thing was made, He made it. As Creator, He is, of course, superior to anything He has created. All three Persons of the Godhead were involved in the work of creation: God created the heavens and the earth(Gen. 1:1). The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters(Gen. 1:2). All things were created through Him (Christ) and for Him(Col. 1:16b).

1:4  In Him was life. This does not simply mean that He possessed life, but that He was and is the source of life. The word here includes both physical and spiritual life. When we were born, we received physical life. When we are born again, we receive spiritual life. Both come from Him.

The life was the light of men. The same One who supplied us with life is also the light of men. He provides the guidance and direction necessary for man. It is one thing to exist, but quite another to know how to live, to know the true purpose of life, and to know the way to heaven. The same One who gave us life is the One who provides us with light for the pathway we travel.

There are seven wonderful titles of our Lord Jesus Christ in this opening chapter of the Gospel. He is called (1) the Word (vv. 1, 14); (2) the Light (vv. 5, 7); (3) the Lamb of God (vv. 29, 36); (4) the Son of God (vv. 34, 49); (5) the Christ (Messiah) (v. 41); (6) the King of Israel (v. 49); and (7) the Son of Man (v. 51). The first four titles, each of which is mentioned at least twice, seem to be universal in application. The last three titles, each of which is mentioned only once, had their first application to Israel, Gods ancient people.

1:5  The light shines in the darkness. The entrance of sin brought darkness to the minds of men. It plunged the world into darkness in the sense that men in general neither knew God nor wanted to know Him. Into this darkness the Lord Jesus camea light shining in a dark place.

The darkness did not comprehend it. This may mean that the darkness did not understand the Lord Jesus when He came into the world. Men did not realize who He really was, or why He had come. Another meaning, however, is given in the  NKJV  New King James Version   margin: the darkness did not overcome it. Then the thought would be that mans rejection and enmity did not prevent the true light from shining.

J Vernon McGee says this;

The Gospel of John introduces the Lord Jesus Christ with three tremendous statements:

In the beginning was the Word, 

And the Word was with God, 

And the Word was God. 

The Word is one of the highest and most profound titles of the Lord Jesus Christ. To determine the exact meaning is not easy. Obviously the Lord Jesus Christ is not the logos of Greek philosophy; rather He is the memra of the Hebrew Scriptures. Notice how important the Word is in the Old Testament. For instance, the name for Jehovah was never pronounced. It was such a holy word that they never used it at all. But this is the One who is the Word and, gathering up everything that was said of Him in the Old Testament, He is now presented as the One  In the beginning. This beginning antedates the very first words in the Bible,  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. That beginning can be dated, although I do not believe that anyone can date it accuratelyit is nonsense to say that it is 4004 b.c., as Usshers dating has it. It probably goes back billions and billions of years. You see, you and I are dealing with the God of eternity. When you go back to creation He is already there, and that is exactly the way this is used in the beginning was the Word. Notice it is not is the Word; it was not in the beginning that the Word started out or was begotten. Was (as Dr. Lenske points out) is known as a durative imperfect, meaning continued action. It means that the Word was in the beginning. What beginning? Just as far back as you want to go. The Bible says,  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (Gen. 1:1). Does that begin God? No, just keep on going back billions and trillions and  squillions of years. I can think back to billions of years back of creationmaybe you can go beyond thatbut lets put down a point there, billions of years back of creation. He already was; He comes out of eternity to meet us. He did not begin.  In the beginning was the Word He was already there when the beginning was.  Well, somebody says,  there has to be a beginning somewhere. All right, wherever you begin, He is there to meet you, He is already past tense.  In the beginning was the Word five words in the original language, and there is not a man on topside of this earth who can put a date on it or understand it or fathom it. This first tremendous statement starts us off in space, you see.

The second statement is this,  and the Word was with God. This makes it abundantly clear that He is separate and distinct from God the Father. You cannot identify Him as God the Father because He is with God.  But, someone says,  if He is with God, He is not God. The third statement sets us straight,  and the Word was God. This is a clear, emphatic declaration that the Lord Jesus Christ is God. In fact, the Greek is more specific than this, because in the Greek language the important word is placed at the beginning of the sentence and it reads,  God was the Word. That is emphatic; you cannot get it more emphatic than that. Do you want to get rid of the deity of Christ? My friend, you cannot get rid of it. The first three statements in Johns gospel tie the thing down.  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Scofield says this;

1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.    Word    Gr. "Logos" (arm. "Memra," used in the Targums, or Heb. paraphrases, for God). The Greek term means,    (1) a thought or concept;    (2) the expression or utterance of that thought. As a designation of Christ, therefore, Logos is peculiarly felicitous because,    (1) in Him are embodied all the treasures of the divine wisdom, the collective "thought" of God 1 Corinthians 1:24; Ephesians 3:11; Colossians 2:2,3 and,    (2) He is from eternity, but especially in His incarnation, the utterance or expression of the Person, and "thought" of Deity John 1:3-5,9,14-18; 14:9-11; Colossians 2:9.    In the Being, Person, and work of Christ, Deity is told out.  1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.    comprehended   Or, apprehended; lit. "laid not hold of it."

Finally if your still not convinced

Norman Geisler says this;

JOHN 1:1 Jesus God or just a god?

MISINTERPRETATION: The Jehovahs WitnessesNew World Translation renders this verse, The Word [Christ] was a god(insert added). The Watchtower magazine states that because there is no definite article the(ho) it means Christ is only a god, not the God(The Watchtower, 7 December 1995, 4). They in fact believe that Jesus is only a created being, Michael the Archangel (The Watchtower, 15 May 1969, 307). The Greek of John 1:1 is not saying that the Word (Jesus) was the same as the God with whom he was but, rather, that the Word was godlike, divine, a god(Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1989, 212).

CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: It is not proper to translate this verse The Word was a godso as to deny the deity of Christ. The full deity of Christ is supported by other references in John (e.g., 8:58; 10:30; 20:28) as well as the rest of the New Testament (e.g., Col. 1:1516; 2:9; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8). Further, it is not necessary to translate Greek nouns that have no definite article with an indefinite article (there is no indefinite article in Greek). In other words, theos (God) without the definite article ho (the) does not need to be translated as a Godas the Jehovahs Witnesses have done in reference to Christ. It is significant that theos without the definite article ho is used of Jehovah God in the New Testament. Because the lack of the definite article in Luke 20:38 in reference to Jehovah does not mean he is a lesser God, neither does the lack of the definite article in John 1:1 in reference to Jesus mean he is a lesser God. The fact is, the presence or absence of the definite article does not alter the fundamental meaning of theos. If John had intended an adjectival sense (the Word was godlike or divinea god) he had an adjective (theios) ready at hand that he could have used. Instead, John says the Word is God (theos).

Contrary to the claims of the Watchtower Society, some New Testament texts do use the definite article and speak of Christ as the God(ho theos). One example of this is John 20:28 where Thomas says to Jesus, My Lord and my God.The verse reads literally from the Greek: The Lord of me and the God [ho theos] of me(see also Matt. 1:23 and Heb. 1:8). So it does not matter whether John did or did not use the definite article in John 1:1the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God, not just a god.

Greek scholars have thoroughly refuted the Watchtower translation. Dr. Julius Mantey says of the Jehovahs Witnessestranslation of John 1:1, Ninety-nine percent of the scholars of the world who know Greek and who have helped translate the Bible are in disagreement with the Jehovahs Witnesses(Mantey, 3:3, 5).

That Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh) is clear from the fact that the New Testament consistently applies to Jesus passages and attributes which in the Old Testament apply only to Jehovah (compare Exod. 3:14 with John 8:58; Isa. 6:15 with John 12:41; Isa. 44:24 with Col. 1:16; Ezek. 43:2 with Rev. 1:15; Zech. 12:10 with Rev. 1:7).

JOHN 1:1 Does this verse teach that God is impersonal, as Mary Baker Eddy claimed?

MISINTERPRETATION: Christian Science leader Mary Baker Eddy concluded that the identification of the Word with God in this verse implies that God is an impersonal deity. Eddy said, This great truth of Gods impersonality and individuality . . . is the foundation of Christian Science(Eddy, 117).

CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: Affirming that the Word [Logos] is Godin no way implies that God is impersonal. God(theos) is the same Greek word used of God throughout the New Testament. And God is always presented as a personal being who has a mind (John 10:15), will (John 4:34; 7:17), and feeling (John 4:23). He is a personal being unto whom believers may cry, Abba,an Aramaic term loosely meaning daddy(Mark 14:36; Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).

Second, two of the three characteristics of personality can be found in this very passage. God is manifested as the Word (Logos) which means a rational discourse or reason. And God chose by his will to create (John 1:3).

Finally, there is nothing impersonal about the Logos (the Word), for he became flesh (human) and lived among us (John 1:14). He engaged in personal relations with other persons (humans).

JOHN 1:1 Did Jesus preexist only in Gods foreknowledge, as some cults claim, or was he really eternal God?

MISINTERPRETATION: According to The Way International founder Paul Wierwille, Jesus was not God.

How was Jesus with God in the beginning? In the same way that the written Word was with Him, namely, in Gods foreknowledge. . . . In the Old Testament, Jesus Christ was in Gods foreknowledge and in the foreknowledge of Gods people as God revealed this prophetic knowledge to them. When Jesus Christ was born, he came into existence. Foreknowledge became a reality. [cited in Martin, 87]

CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: All the evidence is contrary to Wierwilles conclusion. John asserts that the Word(Logos) was a person (John 1:14), not a mere idea in Gods mind, as knowledge would be. The text does not say, as Wierwille claims, that foreknowledgewas in Gods mind eternally and that foreknowledgebecame flesh and dwelt among us. It says that the Word [Christ] was God(John 1:1) from all eternityand that this same person (not Gods foreknowledge of him) became flesh and dwelt among us(1:14).

John speaks of Christ the Word [Logos]being with God(1:1) eternally. Knowledge would not be withGod. God would have wisdom, but it would not be with him. The word withimplies another along side in an intimate relationship. Christ was another person in the Trinity, not the same person as the Father.

Numerous other verses in the New Testament declare the full deity of Christ (for example, John 20:28; Col. 2:9; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8).